A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing

Michael's Blog » A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing

Well, I'm sitting here in the middle of a Saturday afternoon, because my date cancelled on me. Ok, well not so much a date, actually just spending an afternoon with a good friend who also happens to be completely unavailable, but feels sufficient pity on me to occasionally indulge my idea of her as a surrogate girlfriend of some sort. Jeez, I need help.

So instead of exploring all of the cultural wonders of Hartford, I thought I'd take some time and just rant about one of my favorite topics, religion and education (I know that's two topics, but in this context it's one and the same). I may have mentioned before that I was raised conservatively and religiously. My education was half public and half private. The public school experiences were mostly non-remarkable, but the private schools were something else, for sure.

My first experience with private school was 4th grade. It was a Christian school in Brockton, MA, and honestly I don't remember much about it at all with the exception of an adorable little blonde girl, Michelle, who at the time I teased relentlessly as a show of my affection for her. Surprisingly she never seemed to "get" my true intentions, and looking back now,  I realize that she may have actually hated my guts. It's a very painful memory for me. I think it may have been my first rejection.

I don't know why I was returned to public school the following year, I think it may have been the costs my parents were incurring to fill my head with fear, superstition and downright lies (not that I'm blaming them, it's how they were raised). Nevertheless I spent the next two years at Governer John Carver Elementary, in Carver, MA. That's where I first learned to love science. I remember in fifth grade, I had a science teacher who really loved his job. He was excited about the topics he was covering and included in every one, a hands on experiment that really helped solidify in your mind the effects of the science involved. This is kind of dumb, but the one that stands out the most was a little architectual experiment where he was showing us the differences in the strengths of certain pillar structures. He passed out two sheets of paper and some tape to every student, and asked us all to form with one sheet a squared pillar, and the other a cylindrical one. When each student had finished, he then asked us to take our science textbooks (Which were pretty darned heavy) and try to balance them on the top of each pillar. What happened you might inquire? (or you may not if you just don't give a shit) Well, I'll tell you anyway, the squared pillars each invariably collapsed under the weight of the book, while the cylindrical ones all stood strong. He then went on to explain why this happened. And to this day I remember that lesson. It was that way with nearly every topic he covered. He was one of the best teachers I've ever had the pleasure of learning from.

I only bring that up as a stark contrast to the crap that was forced upon me for the next 4 years. As I was going into 7th grade my mother decided that she had had enough of the public schools filling my mind with all that secular, humanistic trash, so she enrolled me into the The New Testament Christian School of Cedarville, MA. It was my experiences during these next 4 years that would forever solidify my views on organized religion, and lead me down the long and arduous path of ultimate enlightenment. I am of course referring to Atheism.

The school started in the basement of the New Testament Christian Church, but quickly grew too big for it's britches, and had to expand into the church proper. This is where I spent my seventh grade, in a small annex blocked off with cubicle walls. The Pastor was Reverend Pierce, and the Principle of the School was one Dr. Paul Jehle, who I now see has become very succesful and has taken over as the Pastor of the church (I was actually present when that overturning of power happened and it wasn't pretty, but that's for a later part of this story).

As short distraction, as I'm writing this and Googleing the New Testament Christian Church, I see that they are as ever heavily involved in politics and are doing their part to destroy the consitutional protection of the speparation of church and state. I'll have to write more about that in another posting.

Anyway, the church that founded the school, was at it's heart, a very pentacostal church, and in case any of you are unfamiliar with the pentacostal denominations, these are the guys who focus most on the largely ignored "Holy Spirit" part of the trinity that they call God. They're the ones who "speak in tongues", "Lay on Hands", dance in the aisles, and perform one of my favorite spectacles, being "slain in the spirit". If you've never experienced this circus before, I suggest that you attend one of their services, if only for the entertainment value. Here's a few things you can expect to see:

    • Speaking in tongues - A remarkable event in which a person becomes so filled with the spirit of the Holy Ghost, that God speaks right through them, usually perofming some kind of prophecy, or dire warning of the wages of sin to the parishoners. Astoundingly, God chooses to use some form of language that is unknown to everyone in attendance, often explained as an ancient form of Hebrew, perhaps Aramaic, or as the language of the angels. Fear not however, because as this very dramatic exhortation comes to a conclusion, usually with the spiritual "vessel" fainting, a second person sufficiently filled with the spirit translates this very important message into english, of course sprinkling the translation with enough "thee"s and "thou"s and "Yea"s to sound all biblical and such. Both subjects claim that neither knew what the other was going to do ahead of time, and many times they both claim to have no recolection of the events.
    • Slain in the Spirit - Again, this is one of those events that requires being utterly consumed with the flame of the Holy Ghost. It usually starts with someone needing prayer for a certain problem in their life, whether it be ailment, or hardship, or simply just forgiveness for a minor sin such as wishing ill of another person or forgetting to say grace before dinner the night before. (I find it strange that no one ever required forgiveness for such major items as adultery, or child-molestation, or drunken binges followed by severe wife beating, but perhaps none of these things occur in the protestant-pentacostal type churches) The subject approaches the pastor and kneels before him (even at that age, I found this a disturbing image, given the proximity of the subjects head to the pastors groin) where the subject is then annointed on the forehead with oil and prayed over (I used to know what kind of oil they claimed it to be, but it escapes me now, probably Crisco anyway). The pastor places his hand on the subjects forehead and raises the other hand towards God while praying for God to forgive this sinner of their trespasses. In the end, the pastor gives the subject a small nudge to indicate that it's now time for them to break into siezures and pass out on the floor ... sorry ... what I meant to say is that it's at this time the the Holy Ghost flows through the pastor and violently takes hold of the subject causing brief convulsions and cleansing the subject of their sins, leaving them exhausted and passed out on the floor.
    • Healing, Laying on of hands - Often the same ritual as the previously noted slain-in-the-spirit display, it's not uncommon for a parishoner to request healing for some type of physical or even percieved spiritual illness, such as "backsliding" or a desire to sin. While mostly it's to cover common ailments such as a cold or flu, once in a while you'll get a good one, such as cancer or heart disease, or one of my all time favorites as well as that of faith-healers everywhere ... the old short leg standby. Regardless, it's always the same, the subject comes forward and the pastor lays one hand on him/her, raises the other to God, often trembling and waving it back and forth as if searching for the hand of God, and prays, yelling out to God to please heal this man/woman. Sometimes though, it seems that it's not enough for just the pastor to handle, so he calls forth deacons, friends, family members to come up and help the subject by joining in on the laying of hands. It's not uncommon to have so many people groping the subject that the subject isn't visible in the mob. Inevitably it ends with the subject being slain in the spirit and the pastor cries out that they are healed. Fortunately this particular church did not denounce medical healing, however when a serious illness was cured or treated into remission, the church always claimed responsibility, though interestingly, when medical technology failed to save a victim, it was inevitably the fault of sin. It's nice to know your church stands behind you, huh?
    • Celebratory Music - While not nearly as dramatic as the first three, it is still a far cry from the reserved, nearly morbid atmosphere of Catholic services, and other more conservative protestant denominations. So if you're not used to it, it can come as quite a shock. The services of pentacostal churches usually run a little longer than, let's say by comparison Sunday Mass at St. Rose. We're talking hours here folks. Services start at 10:30 and you'd be damn lucky to get home in time to save that pot-roast from scorching to the bottom of the crock pot. Mostly, the reason for this is the music. As with any church, services open up with a prayer, and a few hymns, but unlike most other churches the hymns segway into fully band-accompanied sing-alongs. There's no choirs at these services, the parishoners are the choir. You'll see church-goers bringing accoustic guitars, harmonicas, bongo drums and for the truly untalented, tambourines, all so they can join in the celebration of God's joy. And join in they do. I would say that it's a lot like the southern baptist black churches that I'm sure you've seen portayed on TV or in the movies, but there's far more spirit, and far less soul. These sessions get so "spirit filled" that it becomes impossible for the parishoners to remain in the pews, and out they come into the aisles dancing and pounding on their tambourines, and strumming on their guitars. And this can go on for hours folks. When everyone finnally simmers down, and the pastor cunducts his fire-and-brimstone sermon (which in itself could possibly last for hours), guess what, they start right back up again. Usually about an hour into the second round of singing and dancing is when the less-faithful, or at the very least those with less stamina, begin to sneak out.

These are just a few of the forms of entertainment you're bound to witness should you venture into a truly pentacostal church. I've heard that in the south there are some which incorporate snake handling into the mix, but I've unfortunately never been witness to that spectacle.

Anyway, I've gotten off-topic here, but it's important to understand the environment I was subjected to. So, the school. I'm not sure where the school got it's curriculum from, but I think it was a sanctioned christian school type thing. They covered all the basics in math, english and spanish, but where they went off-course a little (or a lot considering your point of view) was in the subjects of science, history and social studies (oh and that extra class you don't get in public schools - Bible study). The science was abismal. They covered things like chemistry pretty well, it's hard to argue with chemistry, but when it came to things like biology, and astronomy and geology .. all I can say is WOW. There are more than a few mis-educated people running around out there because of schools like this.

Creationism was the overall theme here, and the reason that all the science went wacky. Of course evolution was discussed heavily, but only in an effort to dispell it. I remember one of our assignments was to find something in biology that could not be explained by evolution. At the time, I was a devoutly converted Jesus-freak, so I did as I was told and I did so enthusiastically. I chose the human eye. I gave an in-depth presentation and analysis of the biology and complexity of the "design" of the human eye. I got an "A+" for that presentation too. I was convinced that the complexity of the human eye could not have just formed by accident of natural selection, they had me and everyone else fooled. I now know of course, that there are so many errors and defects in the human eye, that it can only be explained by natural selection, but at the time, that information was hidden well away from us (this was long before the internet, remember).

Creationism formed how we were taught about geology and paleontology. The earth could only be around 10,000 years old, so of course huge geological formations such as the grand canyon, had to be explained by way of Noah's flood. Carbon-14 dating was routinely dismissed as error proned and misleading. Dinosaurs were explained away as being destroyed by the flood as well. Why God chose not bring these monsters two-by-two onto the ark was never fully explained. Perhaps they were just too large, and had to be sacrificed.

Astronomy was not much covered at all, but when asked why we see the light of the stars millions of light-years away, it was explained that God could create the universe in any state he wanted, and chose to create it in such a state that the light from those stars was already within 10,000 light years of us, so that we may enjoy the grand beauty of his creation. Do you think Einstien was EVER covered? Any mention of relativity? Nope. Although perhaps that's a little much for 7th-10th graders.

History was taught in a literally biblical sense. The history of the world as we knew it, followed in perfect alignment with the bible's teachings, all the way from the garden of Eden, to the enslavement of the Jews by the Egyptians, their subsequent freedom at the hands of Moses (and of course God). All the way through to the New Testament and the life and death of Jesus. There was apparently a gap in history of about 1,400 years where nothing happened, and we were dropped into the Crusades, the rise of the evil catholic curch (and I do mean evil, these folks hated Catholics). Then we were taught all about the trials and tribulations of the Puritans and their narrow escape from the crushing hands of the Church of England. And this is where the bias of being in a church in Plymouth, Massachusetts comes into play.

From the Puritans onward was a heavy, heavy slant towards the Puritan-Christian foundation of our country from when they escaped and became known as Pilgrims to when they landed in Plymouth, MA and started civilization in the new world. (There was a brief mention of a couple of other colonies further south, but they were obviously unimportant) We spent an entire year becoming intimately familiar with our Puritan heritage, most of us were descendants of the folks from the Mayflower, and so were encouraged to research that past (I myself am a descendant of John Howland, who narrowly escaped death when he fell off the ship amidst a storm and was then pulled back in, as well as none other than Governor Bradford, the first Governor of Plymouth) There was a point that I could probably name a mojority of the men who first colonized New England. (The women were somewhat unimportant) We were taught how their faith in God got them through that first winter, although nearly half the population dying off was a trial of their moral fortitude, the struggle on valiantly and started what would become the most important colony ever formed in the history of these United States.

To get an idea of the twisting of the truth that went on here, check out this book published by the principle of this school I was subjected to: Puritans vs. Witches by Dr. Paul Jehle. Here's the excerpt in case you're too lazy to click on the link.

What is the Truth Behind The Salem Witch Trials?

Perhaps the most godly group of Christians to populate North America were the Puritans of New England. Yet no group has been more ruthlessly villified by modern historians, and no subject more misrepresented than their infamous Salem Witch Trials. In this brilliant, scholarly presentation, Dr. Paul Jehle goes beyond the popular rhetoric to expose the truth. He reveals both the wisdom and the failures associated with the Trials, and he makes the case that God used them to lay the foundation for the greatest revival in American history — the Great Awakening. By Paul Jehle.

Anyway, all of this segwayed into American History where the founding fathers were apparently all God-fearing, good Christians, as well as incredibly moral. (I guess they weren't aware of Thomas Jefferson's alleged Atheism or the fact that most of them had slaves). All in all we were taught that this country was founded as A Christian Nation. The separation of Church and State was poo-pooed away as being misinterpreted, and the Church had a rightful place in the decision making in this country.

I happened to be lucky enough to be attending school here when Pat Robertson mad his bid for the presidency. Everyone student was expected to be part of the campaign, handing out flyers, signing petitions for who-knows-what and attending campaign functions. Fortunately that lunatic never made it into office.

So getting to the point of all this, I was thouroughly brainwashed and mis-informed right through to 10th grade, when my parents divorced, and my mother was inflicted with breast cancer. What happened during this time gets a little fuzzy for me, but only because it was during this time that I first discovered alcohol and marijuana, but what I do remember was the church supporting my mother (for a time), condemning my father and trying to heal my mother. It was in the midst of all this chaos in my life that the power play I was referring to earlier came about. For reasons unexplained (at least to us children) there was a divide in the church between the Pastor (Pastor Pierce), and the Principal of the School (Dr. Jehle). Something happened that divided the whole congregation along these lines, and Pastor Pierce was on the losing side, and was asked to leave the church. Dr. Jehle stepped up as acting pastor until a suitable replacement could be found. (By the looks of things in my research today, one was never found and Dr. Jehle assumed the role of full-time pastor). Many members who sided with Pastor Pierce left the church, and those who didn't, my mother included, suddenly found themselves in strange company among the other church members. It became a hostile atmosphere, and any of the support she was looking for in the church dissapeared.

We eventually left the church, I was plunged back into public school, where I found myself in conflict with much of the curriculum. And in the middle of my 10th year, I dropped out of school. There was much more at play in that than the curriculum, such as me deciding to live with my father, my working full-time at a local pizza joint (thinking I was making enough money to live on my own) and my sudden introduction to alcohol and drug use, but the very out of place feeling I had in my new environment did play a big part.

I did eventually go back to school (for another 3 years, before I dropped out again for far different reasons), but the whole experience left me with the tenacious feeling that everyone in that church was full of shit. Not a single one of them treated my mother in a Godly manner. I began to question the legitimacy of all the "acts of God" I had become accustomed too witnessing, such as the speaking in tongues and healings. I formulated the opinion that each and every one of them, my mother included, because she was part of all of that, was either deluded, or knowingly faked it all.

And so started my spiral into rebellion against God, the church and everything it represented.

Perhaps I'll cover how that went in a later post.

Posted Mar 05 2005, 11:21 AM by michael
Filed under: ,

Comments

Debbie wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 06-03-2005 7:08 PM
Michael,

I just wanted to let you know that I read everything you wrote here about TNT. I also attended church there and when I had children placed them in the school because I thought that it was the will of God. My experience with TNT was not good-my family was definately an "outcast" which made both my children and myself feel rejected. I have since left the church-1999 and have gone on to better things, but I know that God is real-HE IS ALIVE and that HE LOVE US! I think that if you just let go of your experience at TNT and just yield your heart to HIM, He WILL make himself real to you again. REMEMBER, we can talk in tongues, get slain in the Spirit and lay hands on people, but without love, we are just a clanging gong. Don't allow your experiences to keep you from the LOVE OF CHRIST!!
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 06-03-2005 9:53 PM
Debbie,
I appreciate your concern for my soul, and I also sympathize with you and your bad experience at TNT, but TNT was merely the start of my journey to Godlessness. I have no doubt I would end up where I am today, regardless of my experiences there.
You see Debbie, I am a seeker of knowledge ... REAL knowledge. I thirst for it, constantly reading and researching about the physical world we live in. And a funny thing happens when you start to gain an understanding of how the world around us really works. You realize that God isn't necessary. So you start to question his existence, you dig a little deeper into your beliefs and then you start to realize that maybe they aren't very rational, maybe what you believe in doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And eventually you're left with the ultimate realization, that God isn't just unnecessary, he doesn't exist.
Tim wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 09-13-2005 9:16 PM
Michael,
I would just like to echo much of what you said about TNT. I lived in New Jersey for the first ten years of my life and in 1991, my parents decided to leave everything behind and move to Plymouth to place me in TNT. For the first few years it went well but when I was in the seventh grade I committed the "Grave sin" of noticing girls. Throughout the next several years, my life was made a living hell Paul Jehle and the members of the school board. However, I persisted in my belief that I was doing nothing wrong in pursuing a relationship with my girlfriend. They carried their disdain for me to the point of expelling me from the school for a year, (for which I was not at all sorry). Upon returning, I was told that I would not even be allowed to eat lunch in the same room with my girlfriend and was told that her father had said that he did not want me talking to her. I am now good friends with her father and he told me that he NEVER made that statement.
I also want to comment that I had issues with their school constitution. Not so much with the contents but with their application. I even submitted a letter to the school board in which I stated that I had no intention of signing the constitution until I was assured that it would be enforced evenly on ALL students. This letter resulted in a lengthy meeting with the school board in which I was subjected to many prying questions about my personal life and who I thought I was to be questioning the actions of the school board. Paul Jehle even went so far as to shake his finger in my face and scream at me, "HOW DARE YOU!" I believed that not only was it applied incorrectly it was also a joke because many of the students simply signed it to make their parents and the school board happy. I could not bring myself to be so insincere as to try to please the people who had, for so long, made my life a living hell. I do not mean my parents who were in full support of me but I speak of the school board. When I pointed out the insincerity of the other students in signing the school constitution, Jehle told me that the signers of the Declaration of Independence were not sure of the sincerity of each other in signing the Declaration. To this statement, I replied that Benjamin Franklin said the "We must all hang together or we will all hang separately" meaning that they knew that in signing the declaration they were also signing their own death warrant. I hope I have not bored you with the details of my enrollment there. I would like to know when you attended the school. I assume that it was in the early to mid 80's by your mentioning the church split. I may have heard of you in my time there but on just a first name, I can not be sure.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 09-13-2005 10:54 PM
Hi Tim,

It's amazing how many emails this post has generated. You hold the honorable number 14 of disgruntled former TNT students to run across this blog. I wonder how many more there are that haven't found it yet.

Let's see, I was 15 when I left the school, 16 when we left the church, so that would have been 1987. Jeez, more years ago than I was old at the time.

I guess that's a long time to hold a grudge, but for the damage that school has done to who knows how many children, I guess I can hold that grudge for a while longer.

By the way my name is Michael Trefry (like the domain name) if you'd heard of me I would be very surprised unless you were there shortly after me or during the same period. I think they tend to forget their failures.
Tim wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 09-14-2005 2:38 AM
Michael,
Thanks for responding so quickly. I am not surprised that so many people have expressed their disgust with that institution. I am just curious to see if you might be able to tell me who. I understand if you can't but it would be interesting to see who. Also, I have heard of you. I remember seeing your picture in old yearbooks but that is all I know of you.
Michael's Blog wrote A letter from an old friend
on 09-26-2005 1:46 AM
I didn't say much of anything about Katrina, and now Rita mostly because I don't think there's anything...
Frank wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 12-28-2005 11:09 PM
Did you see the news about the fire?
Michael's Blog wrote Christian School Set Ablaze
on 12-30-2005 3:37 PM
And not with the power of the Holy Spirit either!
Some of you may remember the Not So Brief  History...
Anne wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-01-2006 6:32 AM
Hey Mike,
It’s been a while. I was given your website to read by a couple of TNT students. They did not know who you were but asked me if I did. I told them you were a classmate of mine. I found your blog to be interesting. Even though I don’t agree with it. We all have our rights to an opinion as long as we don’t judge others based on that. The road you decided to journey down was one the you decided was best for you. You know the rights from wrong and whatever you chose for yourself you have to live with. No one can change your mind. Only you can decide that. I find it interesting that we both learned the some thing and came out with two totally different opinions. I was the one in the class less likely to succeed, school did not come easy for me but I can tell you I did not let the stop me from reaching my goal. I have my masters now and I teaching in the local public school. If it was not for the foundation I received from TNT I would not be in the place I am now. I am a much stronger person because of the lessons I learnt at TNT. Yea, I did not have it easy there either. I went to a totally different church that did not believe a lot of the things I was being taught but that challenged me enough to go and do the research for myself. So the conclusion I came to and the peace I have all stemmed from that. TNT taught me to look deeper and research. I did not take everything at face value. So I am in a place where God wants me to be and I have peace about it.
Jonathan wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-27-2006 2:40 PM
I realize that this is an old post, but I just wanted to mention that the "pentacostal" idea of God, is very different than what most Churches and Christians believe.  I personally believe it to be wrong in many ways, and yet I am a devout christian.

But touching on the anti evoulution teaching that was given in the teaching at The New Testament Christian School.  I would ask you to, rather than find one thing that can not be explained by evolution, I would ask you to find one thing that can be prooved by evoulution.

You might find that it's very hard.  I haven't found one yet.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-27-2006 3:28 PM
Commenting on old posts is perfectly fine and encouraged :)

Jonathan, if you take a flu shot every year, that is proof of evolution. If the virus didn't evolve, we would never need a shot beyond our first.

If you can't find one thing that prooves evolution, you're not looking. May I turn that around on you and ask you to find one thing that prooves God?

Not only will you find that very hard, you will find that impossible.

I do however happen to agree with you on the idea that the penacostal idea of God is very wrong, but then I also happen to believe that any idea of God is wrong.

Keep looking Jonathon, the truth is right in front of your eyes. Literally.
Coleen wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-19-2006 11:45 PM
I don't know if you remember me, Coleen.  You were in my brothers class Todd Martin.  Well,  I want you to know that the split in the church and school did cause alot of hurt, confusion, and overall negative feelings toward religion for alot of us during mid 80's.  I myself can not blame God for the unfortunate events.  Yet, I did for a long time blame the leaders of the church.  It took alot of soul searching , forgiving , and leting go.  Realizing we are all Human and we all make mistakes.  I truly believe today that the church leaders wanted  to do good by all of us, yet they were trying to protect us from their own mistakes.  I had to go through some real tough times during and after I left the church.  I felt as if I was a sinner and was doomed for Hell. Then I met my Husband who was brought up Catholic and more open minded than me.  He help me get through these crazy feelings and then I was able to see that God had a plan for me after all. My trust in God is there he has truly guided my life. The church and the stigmitizem of labels is why I have not return back to a church as of today.   The church is just a building, faith comes within your soul.  God has answer me every time I have asked.  He lead me to Simmons College were I got my BS in nursing.  I currently work in critical care.  This is were I found that regardless of your religion or belief ,death is a very spirtual moment that no one can deny there God.  I now have three little boys and I am always trying to make sure that they are safe, loved, and not make my mistakes.  This has also help me understand our elders decision making.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-20-2006 8:02 AM
I remember you Coleen, how could I forget? I think I had a little crush on you for a bit, but in a school that was 70% girls, there weren't many I didn't have a crush on :) Actually, and this may be a bit odd, but for some reason, I remember your house, I think it was a large faux Tudor.

Regarding the split in the church, you seem to have an insight into the situation that I never had. Perhaps you could explain to me what DID happen, as I've never been privy to that information.

I'm glad to hear that you're doing well, although I have to respectfully disagree with your assesment of death and denial. Many people who recant their godlessness at death, are victims of the religious brainwashing that goes on in our society. The idea that it's better to be safe than sorry wins out. And truthfully, by that time, it doesn't matter.

I suppose if I were to accept God, I would want to do it just before I died as well, because that way I wouldn't have lived the rest of my life bound to a myth. Although I find the 23 years that I did distasteful enough, that I think even 5 minutes at the end of my life would be more than I'd like to add to that.
Coleen wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-20-2006 10:39 AM
I never said  the individuals that I have spent time at there bed side were religious at all.  In fact you would be quite  surprise at all walks of life.  What I can tell you regardless there is a spiritual experience that no man can denie who is in the room during their love ones last days.   This is why I know that there is a higher power who truly watches over us regardless of the religion you follow.  I believe religion is a way for man to measure ones own good faith.  God is a just Father.  He doesn't keep a score card on us.  He is always there even if our religion/church has scorned our spirit.  For you and I who was brought up in a very rigid practice it is very hard for us to trust in the church or religion.  Yet if you truly do some soul searching you will find that lost teenage boy who at one time was open to hear and feel Gods presence. You say "if I were To accept God" but that fact is you have your just very hurt and confused.
In regards to TNT the split happened because Paster Pierce didn't believe in what the school was teaching.  He had more conservative views in worship and singing.  The fact was the school was bring the money in and that is what kept the church afloat.  There were more people who felt that Jehles way was the way they wanted to practice their faith.  The problem I see is that the leaders all seem to do what they wanted not what God would of wanted resulting in many friendships, relationships riped apart.  This leaving us teenagers more confused than ever about who we are, who we can count on, and how we can fit in to a world we had been fairful of all that SIN.  I still keep in contact with several TNT schoolmates and talking with one another has help us mend many bridges.  
Mark McAulay wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 05-01-2006 7:04 PM
Hi Mike,

   On Sunday May 7th 2006 there will be a discussion on Evolution and Intelligent Design. With Dan Barker Author of Losing the Faith: from Preacher to Athiest (1992) and John Rankin a former agnostic Unitarian and staunch Darwinian now founder of The  Theological Education Institute.

   My e-mail address is TNTMMC@yahoo.com. I would consider it a great pleasure if you would be my guest for this evening. I look forward to hearing back from you and would love to talk to you in person. I am a former member of TNT Church and currently am going to Heaven's Gate Church in Wareham. I am no theologian and  can't spell very well without a spell checker.

   I look forward to hearing from you!

MMc
BlessedofGod 3 wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 06-12-2006 10:49 PM
I think its sad when people are presented the Gospel...they grow up going to a Christian school...but aren't taught how to think logically or rationally about what they profess to believe.  I think its sad when problems in a church split the church...and the members scatter like sheep without a shepard...as if their faith was in the pastor or other leaders of the church...they become confused about their beliefs because the people around them (parents included) are being hypocritical...the profess to be Christians, but they listen to unGodly council (humanists, Catholics, Aetheists et.)...and then they become disillusioned and don't believe anything...Satan doesn't care if you believe in another religion or NO religion...many Gods, one God or No God...just as long as you turn away from the True God...and his Son Jesus...they are all destined for the same place...
Scoop wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-19-2006 6:11 PM
It's interesting that you say you're posting an excerpt from Jehle's book Puritans vs Witches when you're actually posting a blurb written by an unknown person promoting a cd by Jehle on the topic. Not quite the same, is it?

How can you disparage the remarks of others for being incorrect without applying the same requirement for veracity to your own remarks??
Clarissa wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-04-2006 11:00 AM
Thanks for the laugh, Michael! My sister, Donna, found this site, and we both had a chuckle reading through your assessment of TNT. We attended the school for years in the early to mid 80s and have awful memories of it and the horrible people who filled so many positions there.

I was in your brother James' class (as was Coleen, I remember her). My name was Jennifer then, but there were three Jennifers in a class of nine (which partly explains why I've subsequently changed my name to Clarissa). Donna luckily escaped a year before I did, and therefore wasn't subject to the crazy revival that infected the scene in my final year (84-85). I remember spending HOURS in the chapel, sometimes entire days, pretending to sing, dance, and praise the Lord. Oddly enough, dancing was strictly prohibited unless it was in the form of rejoicing in the Lord, in which case it was mandatory. When I tried to opt out of the dancing, my sixth grade teacher Miss Peters insisted I do it.

I never returned to church after I left TNT, and have never missed it. I truly can not fathom how or why some people choose to factor every life decision based on the misogynistic ramblings of long-dead men. Don't they understand myth? Don't they understand rhetoric?

But I'll cut this short... I'm certain I could ramble with the best of them. Thanks again for the post.
Ex-TNT Attendee wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 12-28-2006 4:56 PM
I attended TNT briefly in the mid-90s.  I can't really say that I enjoyed my time there but it was an interesting and "cultural" experience nonetheless.  I harbor no ill-will or bad feeling towards anyone.  Hey, all us "misguided teens" were in the same boat ya know?  I know you guys and gals are all out there and I sincerely hope life has been kind to you.  

I wont belabor any point on how to proove God's existence or theories of evolution since those topics do not really interest me.  

So, since I no longer live anywhere in the New England area, anyone care to chime in with the latest alumni gossip?  Whatever did happen to the school anyways?  

Its funny, even by going to HS many miles away I still managed to run into certain people every now and then and always by accident.  
A. Griswold wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-02-2007 12:26 PM
Ahyee Netop!

The descendant of Mistress White of New Plymouth greets the descendant of Mr. John Howland and Governor Bradford of the same;

and saluteth you as well as a fellow-Cedarvillian, for I was formerly dwelling in the Manamet Land, though now exiled with great sadness to the Niantics, at  the Kichamaug, near Mastuxet (they say the first English to settle were Plymouth men) abiding there when not for business in the Bay.

Forasmuch as we formerly enjoyed a highly favored realm in the Manamet Land, though all is now lost to dissension and diminishment; Yet being come of summer stock, we had nothing to do with that certain church in Cedarville soever; for excepting myself who was raised there in the Manamet land, our roots were in the Bay, whence some of us have returned.

When were you at Cedarville? I can scarcely believe that the pastor of what was once that obscure little church (though now grown great it seems, with the swelling of the population in those parts) is become such an august personage in evangelical circles. The seeming appropriation by him of the history of the Old Colony strikes me as a bit disturbing; as yourself has demonstrated, there may be not a few descendants of the Old Comers who might take anoher view.

But if you would know of the great change that overtook all, after promising and happy beginnngs, and the great calamity that overtook both the English and their neighbors, the Manamet, the Iyanoughs, the Pocasset, the Sakonnet, the Pokanoket and the Narrahiggansett (with perhaps divers others beside) I would highly recommned Mr. Philbrick's recently published Mayflower.

Be ye thus heartily saluted, &c., and let us hope out of the present calamitous days some measure of peace may one day return to the Narrow Land.
A N P wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-08-2007 9:59 AM
The problem here is sin.  Mankind is sinful, and people look for excuses to rebel againt the Lord and justify not following the Saviour Jesus Christ.  He is Lord of all and all will stand before Him and give an account of their lives.  Though I'm sure Paul Jehle made some unintended mistakes, he has tried to honor the Lord in what he does.  Some of the posts here are honest--the former students were rebellious, not sorry, and were going to do what they wanted no matter what.  The problem was YOU, and not the school.  Your attitude and behavior was dishonorable, and if any of you went into the military and tried that immature nonsense, you would have spent time in the Brig and received a Dishonorable Discharge or Court Marshall.  In America, people do not have to grow up anymore.  We are nothing like the many young men who founded this nation, who had character and understood self-sacrifice.  Many of the posts here are shameful.

As to the comment about "most Christians" not being Pentecostal--There are 500 MILLION of them around the globe, so how is it "most" are not?  Most ARE.

My prayer is that all here repent of their sin against the Lord and their transgressing His commandments day and night, and seek salvation through His Son who loved you and gave Himlelf for you.  Follow Jesus the Lord, and pledge your heart and life to his service, and He will grant you eternal life.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-08-2007 10:39 AM
WOW.

And here is a shining example of a pentacostal Christian.

By the way, I was in the military for 7 years. I was discharged honorable with many awards.

The problem is people like you A N P.
ANP wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-08-2007 3:33 PM
Well Michael, you did not READ carefully.  I said that if some did the things in the Military like they did at the school, they would have got the boot.  Why did you take it personally?  Secondly, what I posted is true.  Thirdly, learn how to spell the words you use, like Pentecostal.  And the problem IS sin.  The answer is the Lord Jesus Christ.  Do you deny this?  
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-08-2007 4:00 PM
It's my site, am I not supposed to take it personally?

These posts are mine, and there is nothing shaemful about them.

As an atheist, OF COURSE I deny that that the problem is "sin" and the answer is Jesus Christ.

The problem is religion. It has been since the beginning of man. The problem is that people like you who require mystical explanations for the things you can't, or more likely, don't want to understand, feel the need to push your myths on the young and impressionable.

We are raising a generation of morons in regard to the sciences, because for the fundamentalists, especially the Penecostals (did I get it right that time?), science is the enemy. Science is a threat to your mythology and beliefs. The children in schools like these are the ones that suffer.

Jesus is not an answer to anything. He is merely an escape from reality.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-08-2007 4:01 PM
Oh, I also forgot to mention that MOST Christians are Catholics, numbering near a billion.

But then you Pentecostals don't really consider them Christians do you?
ANP wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-09-2007 7:09 PM
Michael:

You make many statements that cannot be verified.  Are you aware that the founders of nearly every branch of modern science was either a Christian or at the very least, a Theist?  Modern science was founded by Christians and those who believed like them.  

Religion is not the problem, false religion is.  And you think Atheism is the way to go???  Like they did in the Soviet Union??? 100 million of their own people were murdered by these Atheists.  It is the holocaust hardly ever mentioned!  Communism, which is founded on atheism, is based on SUPPRESSION and persecution of those who know there is a God.  Look at Red China.  They have killed tens of thousands of Christians also.  Your group has a horrible sadistic track record.  Communists are evil and cruel.  You will say that "Christians" have done the same.  No they have not.  First of all the Crusades hardly compare to Communism.  Whereas thousands died in the Crusades, tens of millions have been killed by Atheists.  And second, you would object to me saying Catholics ARE NOT Christens, yet they were the very ones killing Jews and Protestants.  They persecuted those who believed the Bible.  How can THEY be Christians?  Catholicism is a system of idolatry and paganism clothed in Christian terminology.  It is a religio-political institution.  Her doom is prophesied about and spelled out in Revelation 17.  

A great book for you to read would be UNDER THE INFLUENCE  How Christianity transformed Civilization, by Dr. Alvin J. Schmidt.  I would hope you would hear these historical facts, because without Christians and Christianity, there would be no freedom, no America, no Constitution, and many other good things that developed in history because of the effect of Jesus Christ and His people.  You can probably get it cheap from Amazon.com.   I would love to hear your input after you read it.  Peace.
K. L. Christie wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-12-2007 10:08 AM
ANP:
I don't know who you are, or if you do, or have ever attended TNT.  I am a former student of the school and a former member of TNT. I went through all of requirements and classes required of the adults to become a member.  I am very familiar with the teachings of the school and the church.  I even traveled on a regular basis with Paul Jehle on 'outrech' trips for many years.  

If there is anything that I can say from reading your postings over the past week, I am horrified, if you are a member of TNT with the judgements and the vile statements that you have made.  I loved and excelled at TNT as a student, a member and as a person.  I left the area and no longer attend TNT.  However, I would be ashamed to even admit to associating with someone of your intolerance.  I have to say the most offensive thing that I can say you wrote was that Catholics are not christians.  I attend a Catholic church here in Alabama, and I have my daughter attending a Catholic school.  I don't know what you define as a 'Christian', however the last I checked the Bible, it was someone that believes that Christ, who was sinless, died for our sins and rose again 3 days later, and that whoever shall believe in that will have eternal life.  Catholics believe that Christ died for our sins, and that is the basis of our entire belief.  If you do attend or have attended TNT, you would also know that the Apostle's Creed is exactly the same there as in the Catholic church.  As a matter of fact,  in my senior year of high school at TNT, we as students had to memorize it and explain it for a test in a class taught by Paul Goedke.  

There have been millions of people slaughtered all over this world in the name of religion, both Christian and non- Christian alike.  Also, who are you to say that the problem was not the school or certain individuals?  Were you there?  Do you know any of the people personally that have made posts here?  I don't remember an ANP that attended while I did.  I don't know if you realize it, but I don't believe that Paul Jehle intentionally did anything to hurt the former students that attended TNT, however, I do believe that there were mistakes made.  The question is: Is anyone willing to acknowledge it?  The fact that a majority of my former classmates feel that there were some major issues with the way things were ran or taught says something.  The fact that so many actually 'google' TNT and have found a voice on this site says something.

ANP, I think you should shed some light on to who you are, and why are you so angry?  I know Michael, Anne, and even Colleen that have made posts here.  I also know that they are all good people.  I know that I don't agree with Michael's view on God or his belief that there is a lack there of, but it doesn't change the fact that he is a man here on earth and that as a Christian you are commanded by God to show him love.  I tend to remember my Bible verses, and try to live by them.  What you have written here reminds me very clearly of the popular verse of I Corinthians 13:1.  All I heard was a 'clanging cymbal'.  

Please, by all means, give us all some insight to why you 'feel' like God has appointed you to sit in judgement of all of us former students.  I am greatly interested in your personal experience of TNT and how Paul Jehle has influenced you.  Paul Jehle is not an evil man, but he is just a man.  I have picked up from what you have said in your postings that you tend to think of him to be a bit more than that.  Enlighten us with your 'facts'.  
other Michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 03-18-2007 8:22 PM
Would someone please point out to me the part of the constitution that deals with the separation of church and state? No please, grab your dog eared copy of the constitution and show me.....
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 03-19-2007 5:02 AM
OK!

But before we get there, let's look at the Declaration of independance:

... no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

Now from the First Ammendment (you know, the one that Christians and Republicans alike both hate):

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Oh wait, you were looking for the actual text "separation of church and state". No that's not in the Constitution. that's a term that was created by and supported by the founding fathers of our country. The same ones that Christians like to point to and claim that this was founded as a Christian nation.

Thomas Jefferson:

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

James Madison:

"Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States,"
"practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States"

You see, it's a phrase that represents the INTENT of the Constitution.

Now keep your beliefs out of my government!
Heidi wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-16-2007 3:34 PM
Hi Michael!
my name is Heidi. My sister (Krissy) and my brother (Mike) all attended TNT. It's been many years and my thoughts and feelings have varied greatly regarding "Cederville". Overall to make a long story short I feel like I was placed in that enviroment for a reason (mainly because my parents made me!!) but I feel I would not be the person I am today if it was not for all the negative and postive aspects of my up bringing. That was such a small part of our life, but it seems to have played such a tragic role in your thoughts and beliefs. I wont ramble on forever,but what I will say is I hope the best for you Michael .and just as TNT consumed so much of their energy convincing us of the "way,truth & life" you are in a sense consuming so much of your energy on convincing people of your atheist beliefs. I hope you have found peace. I do believe their is a good God and He loves us all. Nobody is perfect except God. I think that the people of TNT think they are doing "GODS WILL" but they are very misguided. We will one day stand before our God and be accountable for what we have done in Gods will not our own. I don't want to sound any more religious than that. I don't want to judge you or anyone-these are just my opinions. Take Care. HI COLEEN!!!!!!
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-16-2007 4:17 PM
Heidi? You and your sister are twins, right? I used to run track with you, of course I remember. but I don't remember you having a brother.

I'm not consuming much energy on atheism these days. I still am an atheist, but it's less of an identity now than simply a matter of fact. The only time it comes up is when I'm responding to these posts or arguing with my father about the legitimacy of the Bible as the word of God. We have fun that way. :)

I don't blame TNT for my loss of religion, I would have figured it out all on my own eventually. I merely blame them for trying to twist the minds of children. I know there are many out there that were effected in far worse ways than myself.

The purpose of this post was simply to illustrate the mark that extremism leaves on impressionable minds.

I don't spend much time these days trying to convince people that god doesn't exist, I've realized it's a lost cause. Believers are believers are believers, and most will always be. It takes a different mindset to be able to put those deeply ingrained beliefs aside and look at things rationally.

But I do continue to spend energy fighting the role religion plays in government and public services as it has no place there.

Thank you for visiting Heidi, I'm happy to see you are doing well. :)
Ron Colwill wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-17-2007 12:33 AM
I enjoyed reading through most of your comments here. I did not attend TNT, but I was placed in various Christian schools as my parents moved around. I too feel that organized religion has done more damage than good. And I love the look in my daughter's eyes when I explain that everyone makes mistakes and that there is no "right" way to do things.

There is a big wide world waiting to be explored and interpreted. Leave your prejudices and religion at the entrance. Life goes on without all that crap anyway.
Heidi wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-17-2007 5:55 PM
Yes, that's me!!

I disagree with "twisting the minds of children" comment.
I feel like I stated before that its more the blame of "misguided people" thinking they are doing the will of God versus trying to twist our minds.

I find it hard to believe that those teachers at TNT went out of their way to distort things. I truly believe they just taught us what they thought was the right thing.

I agree lots of kids where effected, myself included. I have since figured out that God is nothing like TNT potrayed Him to be.

YES extremism leaves quite a mark on impressionable minds(which is what we all where @ TNT)-impressionable!!!!

you say that many out there were effected far worse than you-but how much worse have people been effected like yourself to have made a complete religious belief reversal.


I personally think that this has had a far worse effect on you than you let on.

Anyhow- I checked out your pictures. You look the same as I remember!!! Hope your healthy and happy.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-18-2007 8:03 AM
I don't think most at TNT were aware of what they were doing, most of them actually believed what they were pushing, but just the same as with many other cults (and yes, I consider TNT's brand of religion a cult) regardless of intention, minds were twisted.

You may consider it a horrible thing to have lost my religion, and I get that response often. Many feel sorry for me, others blame me and call me a heretic, my own father claims I have been swayed by the spirit of the Anti-Christ (whatever that means).

But honestly, it's liberating. When that realization occurred that this is all there is, that there was nothing beyond this life, no judgement, no reward in an after-life, rather than being hopeless and lost, I found meaning. This life became so much more important.  

But that was a gradual educational process through a study of the sciences and philosophy and logic.

Yes, TNT sent me searching for answers elsewhere, but the answers I found in reality were so much more satisfying. They just made sense. That's not a bad effect, it's an awesome effect.

Remeber, we are all born atheists, with no belief system at all. The beliefs you have today were instilled in you by your parents, had you been born somewhere else, you might believe in a different god, or no god at all.

I've just discarded all of that. It's the default position.

There are:
1.3 Billion Muslims.
1.1 Billion Seculars (I would fall into that group)
1.05 Billion Catholics.
1.05 Billion Protestants (of varying sects)
900 Million Hindus
770 Million Buddhists
400 Million Pagans (tribal religions)
14 Million Judaists. (Why do they get blamed for so much?)

And hundreds of other religions with followers numbering in the millions.

Oh yeah, and 500,000 Scientologists

So who can say for sure who is right, if any of them?
Ron Colwill wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-18-2007 8:51 AM
I enjoyed reading through most of your comments here. I did not attend TNT, but I was placed in various Christian schools as my parents moved around. I too feel that organized religion has done more damage than good. And I love the look in my daughter's eyes when I explain that everyone makes mistakes and that there is no "right" way to do things.

There is a big wide world waiting to be explored and interpreted. Leave your prejudices and religion at the entrance. Life goes on without all that crap anyway.
Ashley wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 05-16-2007 12:14 PM
Michael
In my opinion, athiesm is a religion of self.  There is a god in athiesm...it is you.  
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 05-16-2007 12:36 PM
Thank you Ashley for your vote of confidence in my divinity, however I would never be so bold as to suggest such.

I'm not even a good role model.

But that's not the point. The point is that you're wrong. Atheism isn't a religion. It's just a state of being. It's simply not believing. That's it.

Now, many atheists take on other interests, such as fighting the ignorance of religion, as I have in the past, and many of them are so strident that it might easily be mistaken for religious fervor.

But it's simply a cause, like any other. We feel that religion does so much more harm than good to society and the world in general that it is a cause worth our time and effort.
Confused wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 06-04-2007 12:39 PM
Hey, I disagree with the comments that say that TNT was such a bad place, I have gone there my whole life, and despite the fact that I do not agree with everything, that place has done me more good thnat it has bad.  I just think that you are upset, because your life has amounted to nothing more than sitting at home, whining about how bad your school was and that you are blaming your pathetic life on your inability to make somehting of yourself.
Curious wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 06-25-2007 12:25 PM
You sound like an intelligent guy.  You have obviously thought through and stated clearly what you believe.  I am curious what you think of these videos.

http://www.endtime.com/videos2.asp
michelle wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-05-2007 8:12 AM
I came upon this by chance and haven't read all the posts, but I would encourage you to check out The Truth Project.  It's a DVD series on world view.  It's really interesting.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-05-2007 8:38 AM
To Curious: Anything that takes a biblical apocolyptic stand to the end-times, I can't stomach.

This world is going through some changes, ecologically, financially, technological and not least of all politically. Many of those changes may even be heading in the direction of the fundamentalist interpretation of the books of Revelation and Daniel.

However, the political changes that may seem to be heading in that direction, are (I believe) a direct result of belief in the Bible, all stemming from the occupation of Israel in 1948.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want to be anti-semetic and all that, but what happenned there and what is still happening there today is wrong, and it has caused a lot of tension in that area and the world, that may very well lead to a world war such as described in the bible.

But that would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. A prophecy made true by actions taken based on prophecy. That doesn't make it Divine, it makes it assinine.

It's my belief that if one were to actually take prophecy seriously, one should take it as a warning of ones possible future and do everything in their power to AVOID something like the end times.

But these Christian fundamentalist whackjobs EMBRACE it! And the ones in power do what they can to MAKE them come true. This is the danger of religious belief and power. People who truly believe in an afterlife in heaven, have nothing to fear in death, whether it be their own or millions of others. It doesn't matter if your Muslim or Christian. If you truly believe that your bible is the Word of your God, you are a danger to society.

If you disagree, I suggest you go back and reread your bible thouroughly and decide for your self, how much of it you really take seriously. If there's even a small part that you dismiss based on your own concience or independant morality, perhaps you should question if it is truly the Word of God. Or question your own convictions.

michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-05-2007 9:00 AM
To Michelle: Anything that comes from Focus on the Family is religious propoganda.

The only interest I might find in watching that is to see just how insidiously this group is trying to infiltrate politics to spread their brand of "morality" into American culture, so that I might best know what to do to fight it.

Given that, I did watch the tour of the video, and with each segment I had to forcefully hold back my desire to vomit, ESPECIALLY on the segment about "What is True?" I could see already in the very short segment the seeds of misinformation that Christians continually spread about science and evolution.

The rest of it was just religious bull.

I don't understand the view that people are inherintly evil and need God to save them. Yes there are examples of evil in the world, but by-and-large, virtually every one of them has religion behind them, with the exception of one or two godless dictators (No Hitler was NOT an atheist, he was very religious).

Humans have the capacity for evil, this is true, but in a sociological construct, most people will do good or remain nuetral, because that is what is needed to survive in a society. If you take God completely out of the equation, that will not change. Morality is a product of our evolution, and it changes from society to society and evolves with us as our societies evolve.

For example, what was immoral ages back, ie. abortion, now becomes less so because it does no harm to society, wheras in a population struggling to grow and keep birthrates above death rates, abortion (even contraception) would have been harmful to a growing society, not to mention the health of the mother without advances in medicine.

Anyway, I got off topic there. It's religious propoganda, pure and simple a DVD packed with lies and misinformation. Not interesting in the least. It sickening.
gary corshia wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-07-2007 7:05 PM
im a member of the new testament church and i find nothing wrong with the  church we in fact are all saved by gods amazing grace and yes im am the most imperfect christian whom has ever walked this planet and i thank the good lord for dealing with me and all my faults thank you jesus from the depths of my soul for saving this wretched soul  from damnation  judge not lest you be judge folks face the facts jesus is coming back  sooner than you think look around you the world is falling apart christians are being persecuted jews are being persecuted again  abortion reigns in america  god have mercy on those whom do not know the truth of jesus the saviour of the world god bless and touch each and every human being on this planet may his love  reach all those blinded by the enemys lies
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-07-2007 7:34 PM
Wow, another insanely deluded member of TNT. Of course you find nothing wrong with it. You are one of them.

I find it absolutely amazing how fundamentalist Christians, who's influence controls so much of this country can possibly claim persecution. Christianity is the largest religion worldwide (if you include Catholics). You have the President, you have the Supreme court, you have half of Congress! How can you claim to be persecuted????

And Jews? Persecuted? Please!!!!

The world is not falling apart, it will be here for billions of years after you and I are gone. The question is will we as a human race still be here?

With widespread beliefs as yours, I fear our destruction may well be in hand, but it wil have nothing to do with Jesus.

Say hello to Paul Jehle for for me.
gary corshia wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-08-2007 7:25 PM
deluded dont think so mike i came to christ a broken man and he lifted me up and set my feet upon a rock. my whole loife is to love other as christ has loved me to give and not receive to give all i can give to others is all i want to do is that being deluded i think not mike in fact im praying for you right now and i dont even know you my heart breaks for you mike to know the love of jesus is more precious to me than all the money in the world how awesome and great is his love for me the broken man with nota dime in his pocket love you brother maybe we can meet face to face  my words speak louder than my typing :)
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-09-2007 5:53 AM
Please Gary, do not let your heart break over me. I found my salvation many years ago. My salvation is the truth. The truth that the natural world is all there is, is all we can count on.

Remember, I was one of you once. I knew the "love of Jesus", I was a true believer. And for a while it seemed real. Mass delusion works that way. Each one of you in the congregation feed and encourage the hysteria amongst each other. But I've seen the damage that that belief can cause. I've seen the lies and hypocrisy that came from that very church. And in the case of TNT, in the case of most Pentecostal, fundementalist type churches, it's insidious. It terrifies me to think that they are still indoctrinating young children with their beliefs.

But it gives me hope to know that so many of the kids I went to school with there came out of there, recognizing that not was alright with that school. Sure many of them hold onto their faith, but it's a much more temperate and tolerant view of the world.

I know that nothing I say can convince you otherwise, and that's not my intent. You are free to live your life out in whatever imaginary state you want. I'm just here to spew my opinions and try to reach the reachable.
Heidi wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-11-2007 5:05 PM
Do you see the love of God just bubbling over in "CONFUSED" statement. No offense but I think "confused" must have been abscent the day they taught about God's love for the "sinners" and His unconditional love for all of us. I see why you would choose not to waste your energy responding to such nonsense. On a different note I got a e-mail from a former TNT member and they are looking to have a TNT reunion. If your interested let me know. If you go I'll go. Colleen wants to go.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-16-2007 5:00 AM
Wow, a TNT reunion? I'm not even sure I would be welcome at such and event. I'm afraid they would try to annoint me with oil and drive the evils spirits from me.
But what the hell, that should be an interesting experience to say the very least.
While I have many problems with the staff of that school, I have no issues with any of the students and would love to see all of them again.
Just let me know when!
Erin wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-19-2007 12:10 PM
Hey there, Mike!

Not sure if you remember me. It's Erin Doherty. My parents are Dick and Cheryl. I'm the one heading up the reunion.

Just wanted to let you know we'd love to have you! I thought it was more than about time to get everyone from through the years together so we can just chill, catch up on what's been going on, and go forward having reconnected.

Everyone's got issues of one sort or another; that doesn't matter when it comes to the reunion. For one day, let's put it all aside and see who we all are as people today. It's gonna be fun...we invited folks who attended way back at the beginning, right up to recent alums.

Get the word out to anyone you're still in touch with that I may not know about. We did the best we could, but it was tough to track down everyone's addresses. It's on Sat. July 28 from 2-7 pm, at the John Alden Sportsmen Club in Manomet. Bring your own food to grill, and $5 to help cover room rental.

See you there, hopefully!!
Anne wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-23-2007 11:55 AM
Hey Mike,
It would be great to see you again.. it has been 10 years since the last time anyone from our class got to together...
Are you living in Florida..i heard that through the grape vine.. I am getting ready to move there... I am moving to the Orlando area...
I hope to see u at the reunion... talk with u there
Jay wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-11-2007 6:34 AM
Michael: I'm an ex-TNT student but I only went there once in the mid-90s.  Didn't know there was a whole blog about it.  I read one of your posts and said you were in the military. What service? I'm currently an Army Captain in Iraq.  

So, whatever happened to the school? Does it still exist?  God, I haven't seen anyone from there in this millenium.  Course, I'm sure everyone is scattered to the four winds now. Life catches up with everyone I guess.  

Anyways, I enjoyed the posting.  
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-11-2007 8:25 AM
Ahh well, it was too short notice for me to make it to the reunion. It would have been great to see everyone. Maybe the next one.

Erin, I remember the name, but the face is not coming to me. I'm terribly sorry, my memory is questionable in my old age ;)

Jay, I was enlisted Army. I joined back in '90 for the first Gulf War. I'd love to say it was out of service for my country, but the fact was I was stupid, arrogant, and thought I was immortal. Nevertheless, the war was over before I was out of basic training, and I spent my first year in Korea instead.

Truthfully the Army was one of the best experiences in my life. You gain a much different perspective of the world when you can get out of your hometown bubble and see rest of the world for who they really are. Just people like us, trying to survive in a world that is often much tougher than what we could imagine.

I'd like to say I wish everyone could have that experience, but unfortunately not everyone I was with shared my compassion and elightnement, and instead saw other people as less human.
Gordon R. Vaughan wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-20-2007 11:38 AM
"Commenting on old posts is perfectly fine and encouraged"

OK ...  Hi Michael, wow, this post is interesting to me for a lot of reasons, but I'll try to keep my comments from growing too long.

I'm sorry you're an atheist now, maybe we could discuss that some time, but let me just focus for now on your comments about the school, etc.

Back in the late 80s and early 90s, my wife and I were financial contributors to the Jehles and also Plymouth Rock Foundation. When we became interested in the Principle Approach in 1987, theirs was some of the first (and most valuable) materials on the subject.

In fact, I still have several dozen audio cassettes from three years' (1983-85) of NTCS conferences on the Principle Approach, applications of principles to individual subjects, etc., which were published by PRF.  There was also a book, Go Ye Therefore and Teach, which we wanted to get, but it was out of print.

Anyway, we only met the Jehles once, in San Antonio, about the time the Maranatha organization was breaking up. Around this time he took a sabbatical to focus on the new, much expanded edition of Go Ye, and we were regular supporters to that effort, and eager to get the book and use it in our own research. Soon we left Maranatha and were not yet members of another church, and so were sending a significant portion of our tithe to him.

The work on the book apparently bogged down, and at some point we were apparently just dropped from the mailing list - and have never yet heard anything more from them about the book. For years I wondered what happened, and after 17 years still don't know if that book was ever published!

It would have been nice to at least have gotten some kind of explanation, but sadly that's not SOP for the way many churches handle things. I know people's privacy has to be respected at times, but when possible, I really wish we had a lot more openness in the church!

Anyway, every couple of years since the net emerged, I take another shot at looking up Jehle to see what he's doing, which is how I found your blog yesterday. I'm not at all saying he's a bad guy, in fact I still really like a lot of the stuff he's done, but it's frustrating how so many Christians are so arbitrary and inflexible in the way they deal with others.

For instance, my wife and I are on the mailing lists of several dozen ministries, and sadly, most of them are at odds with one or more of the others we support.

I'd also say that in my experience, folks with lots of convictions about things are naturally more prone to find something to disagree about and so get into squabbles with others with strong convictions. There's also a tendency to have the biggest knock-down drag-out fights with those who are just a little different in their views (it's safer than fighting a lesser-known enemy).

I'm sorry your experience with the school was so problematic. While I didn't really get into the subject of science, you're right science has often seemed of little interest, sadly, to religious people. One book that's come out recently that does show, however, more of an appreciation for the created world (and not just creationism) is Eugene Peterson's Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places.

I don't know if you'll find this interesting, Michael, but any Christians still following this might find my review (with some links) helpful:

http://realcurrents.blogsome.com/2007/01/25/first-look-christ-plays-in-ten-thousand-places-by-eugene-peterson/
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-21-2007 10:48 AM
Hello Gordon,

Thanks for taking the time to comment with so much detail.

First, I'd like to say to you and all the people who say essentially the same thing.

PLEASE, do not be sorry that I am now an atheist. I'm not sorry. It's the only position that is rational to me. I don't feel any less fulfilled because of it, to the contrary, I feel  more enlightened, and more driven to make my life have meaning.

Living under the delusion of Christianity, people tend to find all the meaning they need in "Christ", and thus feel no necessary motivation to make a difference anywhere else, when living their Christian life is a testimony to itself (whatever that means).

And that's fine, if that's enough for you. Personally, I think the idea of fullfillment through Christ is a plecebo that was invented by the Church to keep the masses sedated.

So i don't need sympathy or prayer. I'm perfectly happy living a life without God.

Now that we're through that, I'd also like to make clear that I really LIKED Dr. Jehle. He was a great guy with good intentions. But there's a saying, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Of course I don't believe in hell, but the meaning still comes through.

Regardless of Dr. Jehle's intentions, I personally believe that his ideas and influence are damaging to impressionable children. Not only in that he is perpetuating the myth of Christianity (and a fundamentalist version at that) but in that the school is specifically teaching a very warped version of the sciences.

Kids coming out of that school have no shot at careers in science, without either rejecting their teachings and relearning everything, or hanging out on the fringes of science with the likes of Michael Behe, making no impact and contribution, or worse.

And while not every child coming out of there may have had a promising career in the sciences, maybe their children would, but the belief system is hereditary, not genetic, but passed down nonetheless. And the damage continues.

Paul Jehle was (is?) a brilliant, charismatic man who without the chains of religion probably could have done an incredible amount of good with his life.

Unfortunately, he chooses to perpetuate ignorance.
Gordon R. Vaughan wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-22-2007 8:01 AM
"I think the idea of fullfillment through Christ is a plecebo that was invented by the Church to keep the masses sedated."

Well, I'm not all that interested in arguing about Christianity vs. atheism, but I suppose you know who came up with that idea and how all that turned out.

I recently corresponded with another guy who went from a Christian upbringing to atheism, and has become a big fan of Richard Dawkins (who's apparently on a mission to bring all the atheists out of the closet). I told him my big problem with all that isn't natural selection or even evolution (though I draw the line at human evolution), but with materialism.

One of the biggest problems with science is this relentless compulsion to reject what can't be scientifically/verifiably observed. Again and again we see scientists wrongly assuming they know much more than they do! Whether it's radio waves, quantum mechanics or gorillas, there are always going to be a lot of things we don't know, because the world/creation/universe (whatever you want to call it) is a much bigger & more fascinating place than we realize.

I wrote a couple of posts on my blog AeroGo a while back that you might find interesting, since you like science:

There's so much to discover:
http://www.xanga.com/AeroGo/558420493/wonder-and-skillful-observation-precede-exploration.html

Scientists have a long history of overconfidence and intellectual arrogance, assuming that they've already got nearly everything discovered:
http://www.xanga.com/AeroGo/579972846/thats-why-they-call-it-space-exploration.html

Christianity teaches that we live in a much more magnifiicent universe that includes not just what we can routinely observe with our physical senses, but also spiritual and soul (thought/will/emotional) components. When properly understood, this view of the world tells us, among other things, that people have intrinsic value and can't just be harmed whenever it's expedient, as the materialist Marxists believe.

Of course, if more Christians really grasped the magnificent nature of our universe, there'd probably be a lot more interest in science & technology. As an aerospace engineer & researcher, I have felt a bit out of place at times!
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-22-2007 8:48 AM
Relating atheism with Marxism is a Christian ploy that holds no water. While Marx may have been an atheist, and his philosophy included atheism, it was a philosophy of its own.

Atheism on its own, is really just something that shouldn't even need a name. It's not a philosophy, it's not a belief system, it is simply a lack of belief in any god.

Atheists all have their own philosophies and value systems that aren't necessarily the same, similar or even compatible to another’s.

My own personal belief is that we as humans, have intrinsic value, not because it was bestowed upon us by an invisible god, but because this life is all we have, and billions of years of evolution have given us the right to make the best of it we can (pursuit of happiness and all that). For any man to take that right from another is a crime on society no matter what reason. Thus my own philosophy is not compatible with Marxism in the least.

Regarding science, I agree there are some who think they have it all figured out, but that is not the majority. The scientific method is designed to allow for the unknown, allow for reworking of theory and even discarding theories that prove false. Of course we don’t know everything, we may never know everything, but science can ONLY deal with the physical universe. That’s not materialism, it’s simple matter of practicality. If it cannot be tested and proven, it can’t be scientific.

For all I or any other atheist knows, there may very well be a god, or hundreds of them. But they can’t be proven. They leave no physical evidence, they do not directly communicate, and they refuse to be seen, and they can’t be tested. To me it sounds no different than any other religious myth.

Tell me why your god is any more valid than Zeus. The evidence for both is exactly the same.

Science can’t deal in that realm. And you may call me a materialist, but I can’t deal in that realm either. I need evidence. Otherwise, it’s all Santa Claus to me.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-22-2007 9:05 AM
I'd like to also add that after reading some of your blog and comments, I completely disagree with your assumption that a secular nature ignores the beauty of the universe around us.

I think that anyone who actually takes the time to learn about the natural processes involved in getting the universe to this point cannot help but be amazed and stunned by all of it, and the very simple idea that this life is all we have can only give more meaning to it.

Alternatively, I think that most of the world who just assume it’s all the work of God are the ones who take it for granted, and when you have eternity in paridise to look forward to, why should you even care about this small and limited existence.

Giving all the credit to a single creator minimizes the fascinating beauty of it all as well as interest in how it all works. Why bother understanding it if God did it?

And there is the biggest incompatibility between science and religion. It wasn’t so long ago that we assumed the Earth was the center of everything. Scientists were persecuted for postulating differently.
The more science fills in the blanks, the less room there is for God. Of course, you can always claim that He’s the guy that put it all in motion, and science may never be able to dispute that, but religion can never prove it either, and it’s also in direct contrast to the Biblical creation story.
Gordon R. Vaughan wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-22-2007 8:02 PM
"I completely disagree with your assumption that a secular nature ignores the beauty of the universe around us."

No, that's not my assumption at all. Just look, for example, at someone like Stephen Wolfram. It's my understanding he's an atheist (and so a secularist, I guess), but Mathematica is a beautiful program, and he's used it to spend a lot of time trying to understand how cellular automata describe many natural phenomena, even the patterns on shells, etc.

Really, that's one of the arguments in Romans 1, that the universe is so magnificent that everyone can see God's nature in it.

Beyond that, reading your two comments, as an engineer I can't help but keep thinking of equilibrium and restoring force.

First, while it's easy to postulate atheism and DIY morals in a society still largely shaped by Christian morals (and so relatively - but certainly far from perfectly - near moral equilibrium), given time (a century or two), things will get very far off track.  This happened in Germany, once a very Christian nation, after higher criticism destroyed the authority of scripture in many people's minds. It took a century or more, but ended in moral disaster.

Second, regarding science vs. religion, or at least spirituality (which would include stuff outside traditional religion), the pendulum definitely seems to be swinging back the other way in the past few decades. More and more people seem to have concluded that there's a need they have beyond just the material, or maybe even beyond self-actualization. The link in the AeroGo post about the atheist wanting to give thanks hinted at that.

Third, in a broader sense, it's true that Christian scholarship has really dropped the ball the last couple of centuries with regard to science and some other stuff. Here I also think the pendulum is starting to swing back the other way. A lot of stuff should have been figured out a long time ago, if people had been asking the right questions. There's much more I could say about that, but I'll leave it to another time.

Anyway, while we disagree about religion, I hope you understand I agree with you about the value of science, exploration & discovery. We need everyone to be asking more questions, as long as it's done in a constructive and respectful way. Maybe we could also agree that it's best to be decent with one another, even when we our views strongly differ, because, perhaps, we both believe that truth (whatever it is) will of its own accord prevail in the end?
Ken Nadreau wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-22-2007 9:28 PM
Hi Michael,

I don't know any of these people, nor do I know about the church/school/head trip you're all referring to. I actually found you on Twitter (a real community).

To me the term "atheism" gives far too much credit to deism. I alludes to the idea that there is a god but you just don't choose to believe. It's kind of like satanism that, while trying to be the opposite of christianity, actually flatters it by imitation.

But you are what you see yourself to be and that's fine with me :)

I just wanted to comment on what someone said here about how science was started by christians . . .

Duh! Everyone was christian back then. If they weren't they'd be beheaded or burned at the stake, or both!

Personally I believe that humans are experiential. We're observers, the eyes of the universe looking back at itself. Spirituality is personal, just as are the experiences we all observe happening in our personal lives.

Do you believe christianity is right and true? You're right! It is for you.
Do you believe in buddhism? Way to go, you're right again. For you.

We all ride the wave we know to be the universe. As observers we can choose which form that wave will take for ourselves, and through our own perceptions.

We don't all belong in the same box, and I'm damn proud to know someone like you Michael who has the awareness to know that you don't have to be in someone else's box, nor do you have to stay in the one you're in.

What you see is what you get. Organized thought is control, and control is counter intuitive. Having loss of intuition is losing one's own perception, which leads to mindless robotics living in someone else's fear.

Whatever floats your boat will get you to the end of your jouney :)

If you feel the need to be controlled, that's cool. Just don't think we all do.

Amen ;)

michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-23-2007 5:36 AM
Arrghhh! Twitter is not a Community, it's a service! A community is where people can interact and discuss, none of that is present in Twitter.

But thank you for your view, and I agree.

I've said it before, "atheism" shouldn't even be a word. It's the default position. We are all, everyone of us, born atheists, with no knowledge of a god, no belief. It's not until our parents indoctrinate us with their inherited belief systems do we gain an "ism", and one that's very hard to shake.

But personally, while I agree, that labeling oneself an atheist does give credit to deism, it also symbolizes escape from that particular box. And that is an escape trick, that I’m very proud of accomplishing.
michael wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-23-2007 6:10 AM
Gordon,

I agree, that decency to eachother regardless of belief is paramount, especially when there is so much to agree upon. (Although I reserve the right to make fun of people with particularly silly ideas based on their religious belief).

You are no doubt a very intelligent guy, certainly more educated than myself, and you have been able to reconcile your faith with your interest (and apparently career) in the sciences. Excellent! I wish more Christians, and religious people in general could.

So it confounds me. How do you do it? How do you reconcile the two? To accept evolution is to admit that the Bible creation story is flawed, and thus the Bible is flawed, and perhaps not the absolute Word of God. Following that line of thought, what else in the Bible might be flawed?

But to draw the line of your acceptance of evolution at the evolution of man, really shows a crack in your rationaility. It discards thousands of fossil finds of dozens of pre-human (but oh so tantalizingly close) primates. It also highlights the special nature that many religions bestow upon man, and how hard that can be to shake.
Ken Nadreau wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-23-2007 11:55 PM
Ah so you're an escapist :)

Me too!

I did 17 years as an ordained minister until I started realizing that organized religion always tries to put everyone in the same box. Some of the people in my congregation did just fine following the "rules", while others struggled to conform.

We're not meant to be in the same box. It diminishes our personal power especially when its given over to an outside source, whether imagined or real.

I watched that show on CNN about god's warriors. It very nicely showed the two sides of each religious issue, but it failed to give the third choice, namely, you can have your truth and let others have theirs.

Christianity was never meant to be the "big brother" over everyone. The big boss said, "go and make disciples . . ." he didn't say "go ram this down people's throats and force them to conform."

The idea was to go out and convince people, not manipulate the system to have it their way. If the person didn't listen, they were to just simply walk away.

So its great that christians are afforded the rights to believe as they wish. Just as everyone else is. I would never try to take that away from them (unless they challenged me).

But I wonder . . .

Are the Fundamentalists so weak in their beliefs that they have to get the world to conform so they aren't swayed?

When Lot lived in Sodom and Gomorrah, no one told him to condemn anyone or force any of those people to conform. He was told to simply leave them be and not follow their ways.

The extent of his effort on behalf of the people was to beg for their lives. That's it.

Live and let live, and if the end is coming, and we're all headed for the big judgment, then we'll see who wins :)

<<sidebar>>

Can I get in on the discussion about flaws in the bible???

I'd love to discuss Ishmael :)
Ken Nadreau wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-25-2007 11:06 AM
PS: I was kidding about Twitter ;)

Community is universal. We're all in the same field of energy. The problem comes when we break down that oneness into smaller groups through our biased perceptions of what's true and what's not.

Community becomes evident when we simply observe without prejudice, or preconceived ideals.

True becomes true when false is defined. Right becomes right when wrong is defined. Ugly becomes ugly when beauty is defined. It's all the same thing via different perceptions.

The truer something becomes for us as an individual, the more false everything else seems. And this is intensified when we break off from the one community into bits of it that represents the same truths.

Everything is true so long as you don't consider what's on the outside of your sphere of perception. But if one does wander outside, one is liable to find others with just as strong convictions of their truth.

So community happens when you allow those "bubbles" of group or individual perceptions to melt away until you can see we're all just one thing.
Gordon R. Vaughan wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 08-25-2007 5:11 PM
Well, Twitter IS a service, and maybe not a whole community, but at least a great point of contact. I love it. Mine is at

http://twitter.com/aeroG

"So it confounds me. How do you do it? How do you reconcile the two? To accept evolution is to admit that the Bible creation story is flawed, and thus the Bible is flawed, and perhaps not the absolute Word of God. Following that line of thought, what else in the Bible might be flawed?

But to draw the line of your acceptance of evolution at the evolution of man, really shows a crack in your rationaility. It discards thousands of fossil finds of dozens of pre-human (but oh so tantalizingly close) primates. It also highlights the special nature that many religions bestow upon man, and how hard that can be to shake."

Well, again, that's more than I want to get into here. We have to re-examine the whole question of life forms. Basically, an orthodox Christian would say that people are fundamentally different from animals because they're made in the image of a triune God, with a spirit, soul and body.

There's a great deal of misunderstanding in this area, not only about animals & people, but also angels, etc. We've still got a lot to learn, but as I noted above, the Church has done a really poor job of scholarship in addressing these basic questions, at least in the modern scientific context.

As far as Biblical inerrancy (which I affirm) goes, I think it's quite a presumption to assume that the Bible teaches everything is just 6000 years old. Far too much emphasis has been placed on reading Gen. 1-2 without reference to the rest of the Bible. There's a lot of scriptures that at least hint that something was going on before.

"Are the Fundamentalists so weak in their beliefs that they have to get the world to conform so they aren't swayed?"

As you surely know, "fundamentalist" is a problematic, often misused term that technically would be only a limited subset of those who believe in inerrancy and/or are evangelical. In any case, certainly many Christians have firm convictions, but among those who are intellectually immature (of whatever belief), there is an inability to entertain differing points of view, and I think this explains a good deal of the fanaticism that you occasionally still see among Christians, and see to a greater extent, sadly, among Muslims.

We all need to acknowledge that there are certainly many different points of view. Those of us who affirm the existence of absolute truth would argue that some perspectives are more correct than others, but we also need to acknowledge that there's at least something that can be learned from nearly every perspective.
Madison wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 11-29-2007 4:28 PM
Hey Michael. I am 12 years old and go to The New Testament. I am also in the seventh grade. Although this scool is very challanging, I believe it will help me to grow up and be able to handl tough stuff. I remember You are right. Some Christians are a little to hard when it comes to ministering, but not every Christian. Whe in The Bible says"You are the salt of the earth...", sometimes Christians are either to salty or to bland. Both will be of no use to God unless they turn to being just the right amount of salt. "You see, what you have I can get in a night, but what I have you will never get." That was said from a past student of TNT during a interview on Humanism vs. Christianity. Please reply. God bless!
Madison wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 11-29-2007 4:30 PM
Hey Michael. I am 12 years old and go to The New Testament. I am also in the seventh grade. Although this scool is very challanging, I believe it will help me to grow up and be able to handl tough stuff. I remember You are right. Some Christians are a little to hard when it comes to ministering, but not every Christian. Whe in The Bible says"You are the salt of the earth...", sometimes Christians are either to salty or to bland. Both will be of no use to God unless they turn to being just the right amount of salt.Please reply. God bless!
Lizzie M. wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 01-11-2009 1:34 PM

hey michael, im a junior at TNT this year and have been attending since the sixth grade. I dont think that the science and math courses are up to standards(even though they are really good) but I really enjoy those classes because they show God to us in every aspect of life, not just religion. Im not going to lie I thought that this school brainwashed all the students that have attended but its not so much an academic brainwash as it is a social one. I think that TNT is a place full of two-faced people. There is alot of gossip and all around people seem to get hurt, no matter how hard we try to "change." Dating vs. Courtship is still instilled at an early age but they seem to let us talk to the opposite sex and have "relationships"(complicated).

One thing i found ironic is the fact that the "evils" of myspace and facebook were preached to us two years ago and now all of the parents and alot of the teachers have a facebook(Pastor Jehle had one but deleted it because students were friending him). This is something i dont quite understand.

I hear stories about people who have attended TNT and made a mess of their lives(and went to blame it on TNT). I have a first hand experience with that. I think that it is so sad that people think that TNT is such a horrible place. Pastor Jehle is always telling us about the great godly things the students have done in the past but now as i read all these comments and you guys were no better than us, if anything you are worse. You acted like a good little Christian, and that got you into good standings with the school but where did it get you with God?

There is sooo much i could talk about but i choose not to. I would really apreciate if responded and i find it quite rude that you didnt respond to madison's.

Rob Wilson wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-10-2009 7:58 PM

Micheal. How in the heck are you? Not so good from your cynical post i see. I know you remember me dude wasnt it your mom that hade the time share in Mashpee where we went to swim class? yes im sure it was and if i remember right ya'll had a chrystler mini van well that might be a stretch lol. well my experience with tnt is a bit different although i have done a little wild running in my day tnt was a foundation that my life was built on and i am proud to have went there. i still speak in tounges and attend a non denominational church. i will have been married 20 years to a gorgeous woman on may 12th and have 2 children boy 9 and girl 15 who i am teaching how to live right with christ as a focal point. I also am glad that along with the path i have chosen i am granted God given favor and daily miracles. I will pray for you dude.

Hello Hiedi say hey to chrissy and mike for me. hello colleen i definatly remember you too red head and freckles. hello my lanky awkward red headed baptist friend anne also i am so glad you are doing well.

my email is profencer1@yahoo.com i would love to hear from all of you and any more from the school that any of you may know of thier emails.

anne ive tried to see scott several times but im not sure why he never made time for me when i was in his area so i gave up i still live in tennessee.

ironicly i found this post looking for words from paul jehle on the current situation in our government under dear leader chairman maobama and i see he is doing a tea party in augusta ga next friday night i think i shall have to drop in on him after i attend sean hannity's tea party in atlanta

i look foreward to hearing from any of you who will contact me my facebook is same as my email.....la8er

Rob Wilson wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-10-2009 8:21 PM

micheal

i would like to address evolution

to believe in evolution you must believe that everything is progressing or getting better. in response to your comment about the flu and cures thereof. it is clear that all organisms mutate this was darwins so called proof in pigeons and i know a bit about pigeons as i fly and compete with birmingham rollers yes they flip backwards and spin with incoceivable rapidity like a spinning ball falling many feet in a few seconds. this is a mutation but unless bred for after a few seasons the offspring revert back to regular park pigeons.

consider a watch it was created in effect by a man in switzerland. take that same watch apart piece by piece and put all the parts in a bucket and put a lid on it. dude you can shake it up all you want and it will never be a watch again in a billion years as a matter of fact all that shaking will wear out the parts. in order to believe in evoloution you have to assume that somehow a watch may come out of that bucket. it aint gonna happen.

Rob Wilson wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 04-10-2009 9:12 PM

Lizzie M

keep the faith baby sister living as a Godly woman is your best option trust me. facebook me @ profencer1@yahoo.com

Gordon R. Vaughan wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 05-03-2009 10:09 PM

Wow, Michael, congratulations - this thread is still going after 4 years, and 20 months since my previous comments!

BTW, this post is now up to #2 on a Google search for "paul jehle", so I suppose it gets some traffic.

I'd be happy to correspond with anyone interested in science & Christianity (see previous comments). I'm still actively researching that (& have been for 2 decades).

Again, I encourage Christians to try to be at least a little more open-minded about science. The Bible starts by talking about the world & universe. That might just be a hint that these deserve more than just a passing interest!

Tutor Daily wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 12-01-2009 10:32 AM

Hey , I finally decided to write a comment on your blog . I just wanted to say good job . I really enjoy reading your posts.

Joy wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-05-2010 1:03 AM

Great! The articles so far have been full of great material. Glad to hear the serious will continue. Keep 'em coming!

Joy wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 02-05-2010 8:15 PM

Great! The articles so far have been full of great material. Glad to hear the serious will continue. Keep 'em coming!

mv wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 05-21-2010 12:58 AM

Stop hating and move on. Sounds like a bunch of whiny dbags.

jaime wrote re: A (not so brief) History of My Religious Upbringing
on 07-21-2010 11:47 AM

Hey there.  I am sorry to hear you were so horribly treated up there in TNT.  I am a Christian acquaintance of some of the Plymouth community down there but never attended the school myself... a friend did, for two years.  I met Dr. Jehle and always liked his biblical worldview lectures, but I had no idea of all the problems behind the scenes.  Thanks for enlightening me, and I hope you are fully healed from the problems.  I used to be an atheist and evolutionary biology major, but I did convert to Christianity after college because I found the evidence more compelling.  Still, I get your perspective and hope that you won't lump all pentecostals in with your crazy people up there!

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