On God and Logic

Note to atheists (or theists) familiar with the logical arguments against omnipotence and omniscience, there is really nothing new here but for my own perspective. This article is aimed at those unfamiliar with these arguments

The Christian view of God is a very malleable notion, but at its base God is an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving being. He is a God who knows every hair on your head, every thought in your mind, every desire in your heart. He is a God who weeps over every fallen sparrow, cares for each member of his creation equally, loves each and everyone, sinners one and all, and wishes for all to join him in the kingdom of heaven. He hears every prayer and answers everyone in accordance with his will. (That is to say that while a prayer may not be answered to your satisfaction, it is at the very least answered in the negative because your will may not necessarily coincide with His)

The words commonly used to describe this god, are omnipotent and omniscient, so let’s examine each of these words.

om•nip•o•tent 
   adj. 
   Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.

om•nis•cient
   adj. 
   Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.

This basis for an idea of God is extremely important, because no matter how much a faithful person modifies their idea of God to fit them, these two rules still stick, because after all what good is a god with limited power and knowledge?

If scrutinized however it can be easily shown that these two properties are in themselves conflicting, and at the very least provide logical problems with the idea of prayer and free will.

To begin, consider you were God, you knew everything from the beginning of time and beyond to the end of time infinite. In fact you do not even see time the same as us measly humans. To you creation was yesterday and the end of the world tomorrow, and vice versa. As a being with infinite knowledge of the universe, time is meaningless. You know of every creature that has lived and died, every breath that has ever been taken, every decision that will ever be made and every action that will ever be taken on those decisions.

Consider also that you were all-powerful. There is nothing you cannot do, you can create, you can destroy, you can give life or you can take it away with a swipe of your hand. You can stop the Sun from crossing the sky, and you can manifest yourself as a man to sacrifice yourself for the love of your people. You can give those people free will. You can change the future.

Have you spotted the inconsistencies yet? The first inconsistency was with the simple statement “There is nothing you cannot do”. Now this is a tired old argument, but logically it still holds. Can God create an object that he cannot lift? Or perhaps, can God destroy Himself? Saying that there is nothing He cannot do, immediately places logical limits on what he can or cannot do.

Secondly, the argument of free will is inconsistent with an omniscient god. If God knows every choice you will make, how can you be said to have free will? What if you changed your mind? Would God be surprised? Can you catch God off guard? If so then He cannot be said to be omniscient. If not, then everything you have ever done and will ever do, every choice you will ever make has been laid out in His plans forever! How can that be considered free will?

Thirdly, if God can change the future, then he cannot logically be omniscient. Just as you cannot catch God off guard, how can he possibly do the same to himself? Any change to his plans would be a lack of foresight on His part.

With all of this in mind, the futility of prayer becomes obvious. If God is omniscient, your future is metaphorically written in stone. It cannot be changed, any change would be crack in God’s plan, a hole in his all encompassing knowledge. Any request made to such a god, would have to go unfulfilled, or fulfilled, depending on whether it aligned with His already laid plans. In fact, you can never make a request that He has not anticipated from the beginning of time, with an already pre-determined outcome. The very action of you praying was never your choice from the beginning, it was planned by Him. In such a view of reality, why bother? You will if he wants you to, if you don’t it was His will.

Extrapolated to the ultimate answer, your final outcome, the salvation of your very soul is already known, already planned and accounted for. You have reserve seats in either Heaven or Hell, and logically there is nothing that you can do to change that, your salvation or punishment has been known and predetermined from the start. How can it be otherwise? If you can change your final destination, then God cannot possibly be all-knowing!

Such a world view is depressing as hell, and I can’t see how Christians could reconcile these problems if they ever actually thought about them, but one of the tenants of Christianity seems to be that thinking is dangerous. Questioning God can make him angry, and we don’t want to do that, do we? But then again, how can a god be angry at a question he saw coming for eternity?


Posted Jul 31 2005, 03:53 PM by michael

Comments

Evan wrote re: On God and Logic
on 08-08-2005 7:01 PM
Well written post.. but I have some questions. Do you realize you're focusing more on the argument of predestination vs free will than you are on the existence of God? You have two compeletly seperate topics here. Now I admit that there is a large rift in the Christian community when it comes to predestination, but that by no means proves that there is no God. I for one believe that God can be all-knowing and at the same time not control our actions. The fact is He is "all-knowing", He knows what we will do, but He does not make us do it. If I put a pot full of water on a stove and turn it on high, I know that the water will boil, but I didn't tell the physical properties of the water to boil. I knew in that situation what would happen to the water, but I didn't tell it to boil. In the same way, when God put us here on earth, He knew decisions we would make, but He didn't tell which ones to make. Just because you know something doesn't mean you control it.

Also, concerning this quote:
Such a world view is depressing as hell, and I can’t see how Christians could reconcile these problems if they ever actually thought about them, but one of the tenants of Christianity seems to be that thinking is dangerous. Questioning God can make him angry, and we don’t want to do that, do we? But then again, how can a god be angry at a question he saw coming for eternity?

Questioning God doesn't make Him angry.. sorry but thats an uninformed point of view. Do you know what makes God angry? Does anyone truly know what makes God angry? The only way I know is from what I've read in the Bible. Questioning God is human. For me questioning God has lead to answers. Of course I have doubts at times; if any Christian tells you that they have never had any doubts, they are crazy.. its only human to question. It ultimatley comes down to trust and faith. The total concept of God is too great to be comprehended by any individual. We're not meant to be able to grasp the concepts of eternity and the vast spanses of the universe. Not that it hurts to try.. I do all the time. But God isn't meant to put into cute little scientific formulas.. Heck, even most of the Christian community tries to put Him into formulas.. its not gonna work. Its a debate that could go on longer, but I figure this could be a start.
michael wrote re: On God and Logic
on 08-08-2005 7:59 PM
Yes, I realize I ran a little off topic with the predestination thing, but it really does go hand in hand. You said "He knows what we will do, but He does not make us do it" is absurd. If we did not do what he knew we would do, then he wouldn't know we were going to do that! The whole thing is circular logic.

Your example of the pot of water boiling doesn't apply, because you only "think" you know that water will boil from your previous experience of water boiling. If however the stove were broken unbeknowst to you, that water would not boil, and you'd be left wondering why.

Absolute knowledge precludes change, which precludes free will. There is no way around it.

And last but not least we fall to the old Christian standby of "We are not meant to understand the will of God" blah blah blah ....
Evan wrote re: On God and Logic
on 08-08-2005 8:39 PM
Old Christian standby? Man I guess I can admit that I don't know everything. Thats absurd.. You're telling me you can "wrap your mind" around every single concept that has ever been discussed? I guess your the guy I've been praying to.. your god?

And yes I understand the concept of ciruclar logic. I'm saying, if I was God, I'd know the stove's not broken before I put the water on it. Its not only circular in the thinking its in the debate as well.
michael wrote re: On God and Logic
on 08-08-2005 10:48 PM
I certainly am not saying that, I have a hard time wrapping my head around relativity theory, the concept of billions of years confounds me.

But when you're talking about something that has absolutely NO evidence, it's meaningless to say that we can't understand it. Of course we can't! Nobody knows what "it" is!

Don't you see though where your argument falls down? If God knows that that stove is broken, if he knows that water is going to boil, he knows exactly what will happen to every molecule, every atom along the way, there is NO ROOM for deviation. The result is predetermined. Any deviation would mean he DIDN'T KNOW, and thus is not omniscient.
michael wrote re: On God and Logic
on 08-08-2005 11:07 PM
Ok, think about this. If God is the being described in the Bible, it would be true that he KNOWS before he places each and every one of us on this Earth whether we are going to Heaven or Hell. Correct? I mean, He knows EVERYTHING!

If this is in fact true, why place us here in the first place? Why create beings for the explicit purpose of torturing them for eternity in the fires of Hell?

Is Hell Heaven's furnace? Are we just fuel to keep Heaven a comfortable 72 degrees?

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